Podcast: Trailblazer—Pete Bunce On GAMA, USAF & More
Listen in to hear from bizav trailblazer Pete Bunce, the retiring president and CEO of the General Aviation Manufacturers Association (GAMA). Bunce, an Air Force veteran who flew F-15s and A-10s, discusses his early days in aviation, the industry’s biggest challenges and successes, the impact new leadership in the U.S. and Europe on the industry, his advice to young people and more. He also reveals his favorite aircraft, which may surprise you.
Hello, and welcome to the BCA Podcast by Aviation Week Network. I'm your host, Jeremy Kariuki, Associate Editor for Business Aviation. I'm joined by my colleague Molly McMillin, Managing Editor of business aviation for the Aviation Week Network. Today, we're continuing our Trailblazer series, highlighting the industry's most prolific and influential leaders. Joining us today is Pete Bunce, a 26-year U.S. Air Force veteran, President and CEO of the General Aviation Manufacturers Association, or GAMA. Among his many accolades, he's served on several advisory boards and councils. To this day, he's an active pilot with over 7,500 hours in the air. Pete recently announced his upcoming retirement from GAMA and is leaving behind a long list of achievements made throughout his tenure. Pete, welcome to the show.
Pete Bunce:
Well, thank you Jeremy, and thank you Molly for letting me be with you today.
Molly McMillin:
We're delighted to have you, Pete. Thank you. Over your 20 years, almost 20 years, you've worked with regulators and policy makers and Congress, representing GAMA's membership, which serves more than, what, 140 aircraft, avionics, engine and component manufacturers, business aviation, maintenance repair, and overall companies and others. Just looking big picture, what do you think is your most shining achievement thus far?
Pete Bunce:
Well, Molly, I think it's hard to pick just one, because I'm proud of many of the different facets of the industry where we've had some impact on. I think if I look at GAMA in and of itself, we've almost tripled the size, but more importantly than that is, we've assembled the most incredible staff that I think there is in aviation. The technical expertise that's resident in our staff, both in the U.S. and in our Brussels office is second to none. They're just superstars, and the fact that everybody that I've hired at GAMA knows that the first thing they have to do is get up in front of a Board of CEOs and Captains of Industry and be able to present at their very first Board meeting is really something special, because I put them on the spot right away, put the heat on them.
The way I run GAMA is, my board looks at me, and I think my report card is based on the quality of the people that I hire, so I put them in front of the board. I would say first and foremost, if I had to pick them, it's the staff. We've had some seminal events, obviously, along the way, from a Congressional standpoint. Getting The Small Aircraft Revitalization Act through Congress really changed the way we can do performance-based rulemaking and also implement a safety continuum. Working to bring the authorities together on things like validation, because our projects are all globally based, and I've become personal friends with the heads of EASA, Patrick Goudou, Patrick Ky, and now Florian, are all personal friends, as well as every FAA administrator. Creating those friendships and those relationships and helping them work together closely is something I'm quite proud of.
Being able to go and bring rotorcraft into the Association and have the rotorcraft manufacturers as part of it is very important, as well as the large MRO companies, many of which have also FBOs, and a chain of FBOs. And then, I would say another seminal event was being able to get out in front of this Electric Propulsion Innovation Committee, which we have 44 companies represented in the room, along with 18 folks online from different companies preparing for our meetings with the FAA tomorrow, right here in Washington DC today. We had 16 companies back in 2015 when we kicked this off, but now it's our largest [inaudible 00:04:37].
Molly McMillin:
GAMA championed the Advanced Air Mobility Coordination and Leadership Act, which was recently signed into law. What does that do?
Pete Bunce:
One of the other really significant milestones for GAMA has been the formation of the Electric Propulsion Innovation Committee, which we formed back in 2015, and it's become our largest committee. All those that are serious working in the field of autonomy and electric propulsion are all assembled. In fact, that's where I'm today, here in Washington DC. We've got our committee formed together to get ready for our meetings tomorrow with the FAA and Department of Transportation on the recently published SFAR. We've got 44 member companies represented in the room, along with 18 online that are all preparing for what we're going to pitch the FAA on implementation of the SFAR. Very proud that we got that group corralled right at the beginning of the infancy of this portion of our very important industry. And then hopefully, we will see operationally flying next year, some of the first entrants in there. I'm extremely proud of that.
It's a whole bunch of things altogether, but they say you don't work a day when you love what you're doing, and I've loved every second of being at GAMA. I'd be remiss not to mention how great my Board has been. We're unique in that every member company is on the GAMA board of directors, so it's a huge board, but I haven't had a single incident, Molly and Jeremy, that I've seen these companies have a competitive issue that's come up at a GAMA board meeting. They all work together to be able to grow this industry, and to grow GA and business aviation on all parts of the planet. It's such a pleasure to see them get into an environment where they're friends, and they compete fiercely outside, but they get in a conference room and it's all to be able to create an even playing field and an ability to compete fairly in all regions. What we've been able to accomplish is due to the fact that the staff can work so well with direction from the Board and get things done.
Molly McMillin:
I've noticed that, too, Pete, at the functions that I have attended with your board members there. You know that they're competitors, but yet, they're all working together for the betterment of the industry.
Pete Bunce:
I talked to friends that are in the automotive sector and the pharmaceutical sector, and there's a lot of cutthroat competition out there. Even in their trade associations, you don't have that collegiality that we do at GAMA. It may also be the international nature of what we do as well, because people definitely have the viewpoint that all boats rise at high tide, and that if we work these issues with the global regulators, everyone is going to have an ability to compete fairly.
Molly McMillin:
And not to say that GAMA and the industry hasn't been without its challenges. Certainly 2008 comes to mind, and the economic downturn that everyone was facing then. What do you feel was either GAMA's or the industry's biggest challenge during your tenure, looking back?
Pete Bunce:
Well, when my brother Ed Bolen and I reinvigorated and relaunched No Plane No Gain, right after the auto execs came to DC, we really had a lot of challenges in front of us. We had to work initially up on Capitol Hill to defeat some very anti-business aviation legislation that was brewing, and we had to work that hard, and we found some not traditional allies in that scope of work that were able to come forward and work with us. And then, as we got more and more into No Plane No Gain, and NBAA worked at getting some of the business leaders that aren't just in the aviation sector but are out there, whether it's Arnold Palmer or whether we're looking at different companies that use business aviation to further their business, they worked that portion while we, as the manufacturers, started having rallies around the country at our facilities.
I think we had the first one at the Dassault facility in Little Rock, but we had them all over the country, where we got senators and congressmen and governors all in to be able to talk about the importance of this industry. It's pretty cool to be able to see a politician get in front of their voters, and their staffs coach them on the importance of the industry, and all of a sudden they use the words, and they accept it, they believe it, they know the numbers, they know the economic contributions. That really had a positive effect. Now, you fast-forward, as we built, No Plane No Gain up, when we got into the user fee, ATC privatization fight several years after that, we had those allies built that understand how this industry and how business and general aviation would be so negatively affected by privatization, and how the part of the FAA that actually does work really well is the ATC portion. It's the other part of the FAA that needs attention, that would always stay with the government anyway.
All of these things fit together, and our objective during that period of time was a grass tops type of objective, that we worked with decision makers, policy makers, influencers, even before the term influencers was popular, to be able to go and talk about the importance of this industry, and then go and further that with our economic impact studies. We're going to release a new one here at our State of the Industry briefing in February that was done, and we have all the associations. GAMA takes the lead on it with the biggest financial contribution, but our other sister associations also contribute. We also have done one in Europe to release at the same time, because we have a brand new Congress, a brand new administration here, but a lot of people forget, we have a brand new Parliament and a brand new Commission over in Europe.
Our timing could not be better to be able to bring these out and be able to talk about the importance of this industry, both from an economic standpoint, but also from looking at, we are the technology incubators out there. If we are going to decarbonize aviation, it's got to start with smaller aircraft, whether we're talking electric propulsion, hybrid, or we're talking about use of SAF, business aviation are the leaders right now, and the OEMs, in fact, are the largest users of SAF out there. We're walking the talk, and I'm extremely proud of how our industry is responding to the sustainability challenges that are all in front of us as well.
Jeremy Kariuki:
Through GAMA, through your tenure, you talk about how a rising tide lifts all boats. You have so many allies in this space, and a lot of companies come together to get things done. I would love to know what the biggest challenges were in terms of getting these regulations and this legislation passed. I know that you have all this help, but what was really the hardest part of that process?
Pete Bunce:
Well, if you look at how the sausage is made up on Capitol Hill, you really have to do the shoe leather type of work up there. What I brought to GAMA was something that I took from the Air Force. I worked on Capitol Hill for the Air Force, first running the Air Force liaison office for the House of Representatives, and then for both House and Senate appropriations after that, and one thing that was very effective is, we brought wing commanders in from all over the country to talk to their legislators on both the House and Senate side about their base, and the importance of what they do in their specific discipline, whether it's fighters, bombers, missiles, whatever. I saw how well that type of engagement went. So when I came to GAMA, what I did is, I said, "Let's implement the Capitol Hill Day, where we bring in all of our members, and we spend an entire day working the Hill."
I think our last Hill Day last May, we had over 130 meetings, and basically, we get the meetings with the Senator or Congressman, it's not with their staffs, because we are employers, and we were able to implement that. Being able to have the employers talk to a member of Congress about what issues are very important is why we had so much success not only beating privatization, but also in all of the different FAA reauthorization bills and the appropriations bills that have gone through Congress. This last one is a prime example. Our GAMA priorities were represented in that FAA reauthorization bill, and we're hoping, as we get through the process, the continuing resolutions here with the appropriations process, our priorities also will be passed there. It's really the shoe leather type of lobbying efforts by people that employ voters, and it just so happens that we are instituting our very first effort in Strasbourg, France, here in a couple of weeks, where we're going to do the same thing.
The European Parliament not only meets in Brussels, but once a month they go to Strasbourg. Actually, it's easier to get a meeting with them in Strasbourg, they have less distractions. We have several meetings set up with our European Leaders Steering Committee, to be able to go and engage this brand new Parliament, because basically, all of the members of Parliament that used to be on the transportation committee have all cycled out. We've got all new relationships we've got to build, so we're replicating that in Europe as well. I'm just very proud of the fact that we're able to have that kind of influence, and then, we try to do the same thing on the regulator side.
Molly McMillin:
You bring up a good point, that the leaders in Europe and the U.S. both will change in 2025, and your mission now is to create those relationships with the new leaders. What if any impact do you think those changes will have on business aviation, and general aviation in general, if anything?
Pete Bunce:
Well, I'm hopeful that with the new administration, there'll be some emphasis on... we've heard a lot about efficiency, whether it's from Elon or Vivek, talking about efficiencies, and we have been very frustrated by the fact that the folks that we work with at the FAA, especially in aircraft cert(ification), are working from home still, and very seldom do they get together. Because they've got such a brand new workforce, very young workforce, all of the collaboration that we get in our companies by having engineers get together, decision make collectively, the old heads teach the young guys and gals their experience level. That doesn't happen when you don't get together in an office. We are hoping that things like that happen, but also, there's a lot of room for improving efficiency, and just response times, and looking at metrics of, if we have an issue paper, go in. We need to get back to a standard response time and have measurable goals that the FAA works toward.
That goes for the other authorities too, to be able to respond to industry, because the pace of technology isn't slowing, it's accelerating. Those are opportunities with the new administration that we have. Some of the things I am concerned about with the new administration is, there needs to be a realization with the new administration that we can't go back in aerospace to this idea that for every one rule we promulgate, we've got to get rid of two. Because in aerospace, it doesn't work. We can't do something without an enabling regulation, and that's truly what it is, it's enabling. We're hoping that we are able to engage members of the new administration to realize that doesn't work for aerospace. Aerospace needs new rules. That is exactly what we're doing here with our EPIC committee right now, is being able to talk about the implementation of this new SFAR, and without that, we couldn't move forward.
We've got to make that point with the new administration, and then, be able to have some stability within the FAA as well, especially because there's a lot of political appointees that are switching out, but also, even career officials like the Head of Aviation Safety, David Boulter, is retiring, and we have an acting and aircraft cert official, so that decision needs to be announced for permanency there. And then, the Deputy FAA Administrator will be leaving, the head of legal has just left, so we need to have Administrator Whitaker have a strong team to be able to go and keep aerospace progressing.
Molly McMillin:
GAMA joined aviation and petroleum groups and the FAA in committing to an initiative for a plan to transition piston powered aircraft to lead free aviation fuels by the end of 2030. I realize we're at the end of 2024, but that's really not that many years away. Do you think we'll get there in time, and what are the biggest challenges there?
Pete Bunce:
Yeah, December 2030, when we established the goal a few years ago, made sense to us, and it still makes a lot of sense, and I'm very confident we're going to get there. There are obviously challenges along the way, but we also work very closely together, and this is why I'm so proud to be able to work with, I call my brothers that are at AOPA, EAA, NATA, VAI, all of these different associations. We meet routinely together to be able to go and work these issues collectively, and by putting a stake in the ground, we've all wanted to transition to an unleaded fuel for years, but it's a challenge. It is really hard to do, and as Mark Baker always said, if it was easy, we would have done it years ago, because nobody wants to have the lead out there, but it is a significant challenge.
What we've got to do is be able to just make sure that, one, there's availability of 100 low lead until we have a good transition capability, that there's commercially available fuel out there that is available that all of the distributors, the manufacturers, those that store the fuel at the FBOs all can be accepted of this fuel. The other challenge out there is that, in the test programs that are established, each one of these fuels is required to commingle with 100 low lead. What there isn't a requirement is to commingle with one another, and we've got to be pushing the FAA to build into the long-range test program an ability to be able to make sure that these fuels can commingle, and if they can't commingle, then there's some tough decisions that have to be made before the end of 2030.
Of course, there is that logical carve-out that Senator Sullivan worked very passionately on, to be able to give Alaska a little bit more time. Two weeks ago, the EAGLE Consortium met with the fuel producers, Exxon and Phillips, and in fact, also the company that makes the tetraethyl lead, the one sourcing the world and everything, and the one thing that came out of that meeting for me was, one, it's more complex than you'd think, but also, there is a very logical transition plan that they are all putting into place for the phase out of lead, too. It's not just us. Logically, it's not going to be, the spigot is going to be turned off at December 31st, 2030. There is a drawdown plan and a conversion plan, and knowing how many tanks are out there, and how you have to clean the tanks when we get rid of all of the lead and we go to strictly the unleaded and everything, it is really complex and fascinating to learn about.
Molly McMillin:
I bet. I'm going to ask you to put your prediction cap on right now. You're in the middle of talking about AAM and eVTOL, and the future. What do you think that will look like in the next 10 years, or 20 years? And then, broader than that, what will the business aviation landscape look like in the next 10 or 20 years?
Pete Bunce:
One, very healthy growth throughout. If you look at our backlogs all in business aviation, whether you're talking turboprops or jets itself, the backlogs are healthy. Obviously, everybody knows about the supply chain problem. We're playing Whack-a-Mole with that all the time. Piston aviation, as we convert to the unleaded fuel, will be healthy and stable, and growing, because we've got to train the pilots for the fleet. In the initial phases, before we have autonomy out there, we're going to need more pilots to be able to operate these AAM type of vehicles. You throw into the mix there that the drones will soon not be just operating under 400 feet in the U.S., or in new space in Europe, but they're going to be climbing higher; they're going to get bigger, and autonomy is proving itself very useful when you look at what Wing or Reliable Robotics - all these companies are doing out there, it's just absolutely fascinating.
If I had to put on my crystal ball, first of all, I would see our opportunity to be able to move cargo very easily in electric and hybrid type of aircraft. That's going to happen very soon. We will branch out, and we'll be able to carry people autonomously, again, in a spectrum of a safety continuum. It's not going to be on the commercial airline side, but it'll be definitely on the Pt 135 side, where we will have autonomy out there. People say, "Well, would you ever get into an aircraft that doesn't have a pilot on board?"
I say, "Well, do you even think twice when you get on trams traveling at 55 miles an hour, and you're standing up at an airport, or an elevator?" We have no more elevator operators. It's the progress of technology. My kids probably wouldn't even look left when they got in, because they'd be looking at their iPhones or whatever all the time. That is definitely going to happen. We still are going to progress forward with sustainable aviation fuel. I'm very excited about, we have an extension of the farm bill for a year right now, but there are initiatives both in the House and Senate, bipartisan, because everybody loves farmers, to be able to do what we're calling Farm to Fly, to be able to take the ethanol that we produce and refine it more to be able to make sustainable aviation fuel. We have to have it. You can't get to our committed goals of net-zero by 2050 without the sustainable aviation fuel portion, but then, adding all of these new electric and hybrid propulsion vehicles.
And then, I have the honor of sitting on the NASA Aeronautics Advisory committee. We spent all last week talking about some of these new vehicle designs that we have out there - the significant reduction in fuel burn, but some very exotic designs to what we're used to. You put all of this together, and my recommendation to young people right now is, really take a look at what is happening in this industry. It is so exciting, and what's equally exciting to me, and what I've been passionate about is, I was looking at a room this morning at Electric Propulsion Innovation Committee, about how many women we had in the room. It is so inspiring to me that we have so many young women wanting to be part of this and joining in. These are really smart individuals that are so passionate about what we're doing. It's not only in the electric and hybrid space, but it's also, if you walk around any of our companies right now, you're seeing more and more ladies that are in there.
I'm just excited about that because we'd be stupid not to tap half of the population out there, but it's made our industry so much stronger. That's the other thing that's been cool about being at GAMA. Every one of our CEOs is as passionate about bringing women into our industry as I am, and the proof is in the pudding. We're getting them out there. Some of the studies that we were pushing with Congress, to be able to look at women in aviation, have given us some lessons learned that we now put down into, not only the middle school level, but even in the elementary school level, about how we appeal to girls, to be able to get them excited about being part of this industry, whether it's on the sustainability side or the life-saving side of the industry. It's very rewarding.
Molly McMillin:
That's exciting to hear. I can't tell you, being female and being in aviation for 25, 30 years, the number of events I've been to and I can count on one or two hands how many women were in the room, including events that they turned a women's bathroom into another men's room. That's exciting to hear. You started in this industry, you became a pilot when you were a teenager. What drew you initially to that?
Pete Bunce:
Well, I had no choice. Understand, I had my first airplane ride when I was nine months old, because my aunt was an aviator. She had no kids, and my mom was taking me out to California from Wisconsin to visit her other sister, and my aunt said, "I'll be damned if he's having his first airplane ride in a commercial aircraft," so she took me up in a Luscombe. I don't remember actually not being in an airport. As a kid, I would be out there washing airplanes for rides, pumping gas at Capital Drive Airport outside of Milwaukee. My aunt operated it, she had 11 airplanes at one time, she and her business partner. I was always flying. I made my decision. I wrote a paper in seventh grade that said, "I'm going to the Air Force Academy," and my mom still has that paper, and I was singularly focused.
She got mad at me when I didn't apply to any place else but the Air Force Academy as a junior, and she said, "Well, what happens if you don't get in?"
I said, "I'll figure it out." I was very fortunate to have that opportunity. I always knew, when I left the Air Force, I'd stay in aviation in one capacity or another, and just out of blessings and everything had the opportunity to be able to interview with the search team for GAMA a little over 20 years ago and be able to get the job.
Molly McMillin:
And you still fly, is that right?
Pete Bunce:
Oh, yeah. Not enough, but if you ever find a pilot that says they're happy with the amount they're flying, then you've got to question them.
Molly McMillin:
I'm going to put you on the spot. What's your favorite airplane?
Pete Bunce:
Well, for a fighter pilot, the first fighter you get is always your favorite, so the F-15 is my favorite. It's still got absolutely, I forget what the number is, kill ratio. It's never been shot down in combat and everything. That's my favorite airplane of all time. For those that I fly now, the Glasair Sportsman is my favorite. We have a tail dragger, but that's because, one, I'm the guy that, on the books put it together, but really, more importantly is that we built it in two weeks to taxi, with a bunch of kids when we launched the GAMA Aviation Design Challenge. We actually built two tail draggers together. Mark Van Tine from Jeppesen was my partner in crime, in that one. We went to the Glasair Challenge and said, "Let's build two together, and have two teams of kids, and have them compete."
One team ended up being from Michigan, one team from Minnesota, so we had eight kids working on both airplanes, and actually, the GAMA aircraft that I get to fly now finished first. We not only taxied it in two weeks, we actually had its first flight on Day 13. What was so rewarding during that experience, and I'll remember it like it was yesterday, is having the FAA flight standards inspector walk around the airplane with the eight kids, looking at their craftsmanship and their work, and checking their rivets to see if there were any smiling faces on the rivets, where they missed with the rivet gun and everything, and just how proud each and every one of those kids were when he passed the aircraft off. And then, he basically donated his fee for coming out and inspecting back to the program itself. We've been able to keep the Aviation Design Challenge going since then.
I think we're coming up on year 11, I think, and now, CubCrafters has been very generous to allow us to take kids out there. And they actually give them a project of something that they want to build in as a modification or a new feature in the aircraft each year, and they have their whole engineering team work with the kids. It's phenomenal how fun it is to see these kids do it. I made a requirement that each team have at least one female on board, and some years, we've got, actually, a larger proportion of females on the team. It's funny to see, a lot of those young ladies know how to operate tools better than their male counterparts and everything. It's always fun, and I get to tease them and stuff, so it's really wonderful.
Molly McMillin:
Talking about young people, just real quickly, what advice would you give young people coming into this industry, or considering the industry? What would you say to them?
Pete Bunce:
Well, I think we in the United States have always been behind our European friends in talking about the values of the trades. If a young person is mechanically inclined, and they either can't afford to go to college or they're just not ready to go to college, but they know how to use their skills, their hands, their brain to be able to do mechanical operations, we have an exciting industry to be a part of. And then, for those that do go on to college, to be an engineer in our industry right now, with the advancement of technology and how quickly we're able to incorporate safety and sustainability, and just performance into these new designs - it is just so exciting to be talking to our engine manufacturers about augmented propulsion, where we we'll have electric generation in large scale, major, major power generation from the spinning turbine that can augment the thrust.
But then also, what we're now testing with hydrogen, and what the capability may be for hydrogen, that traditionally, we we're thinking, "Well, the vessel's so huge, it has to be cylindrical, we have to cryogenically cool it and everything, so that's probably an impossibility for large commercial aircraft." It was actually looked at way back when, 40, 50 years ago, but actually now, there's some serious consideration of looking at how we could use that. It is just absolutely phenomenally exciting what's ahead of us. I would just encourage young people to look to aerospace and just say, it is one industry that you could get involved with and want to stay forever, because it's just so exciting.
Molly McMillin:
Well, I can't thank you enough. Thank you for joining us.
Jeremy Kariuki:
Thank you for listening to the BCA Podcast by Aviation Week Network. This episode was produced by Jeremy Kariuki and Guy Ferneyhough. If you enjoyed the show, don't forget to like or follow us on your podcast app of choice. If you'd like to support us, please leave a rating wherever you listen. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.
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